Curse

Thomas.knbk · Dec 27, 2006, 10:47 PM // 22:47

The clue is in the title. This is probably the most discussed skill there is at the moment (this or Avatar of Grenth), so I thought I might as well make a thread about it.
I personally don't think it's overpowered. It's got about the same DPS as a frenzied warrior on a single target. It has a chance to AoE which would make it stronger than that frenzued warrior, but as a balance you devote your entire bar to this one skill, which makes you a lot weaker than that warrior. I'd like to hear what you all think.
Discuss plx

Gumby · Dec 27, 2006, 11:24 PM // 23:24

I agree. People are just afraid of change. Warriors have always been kings of Killing stuff in PvP and Eles have always been Ward Bitches and Blindbots. Now Eles can kill stuff too so they cry for a nerf. Such whiners.

JR · Dec 27, 2006, 11:56 PM // 23:56

The thing about Searing Flames that makes it imbalanced is the way in which it stacks with other copies of it's self - which is why there was such a trend for five Searing Ele builds, and they have not taken off at all as single characters in a pressure build.

The damage from Searing triggers when a target is on fire, the more copies of Searing - the more people are on fire. The burning overlaps and it becomes easier to get bigger hits. It is terrible as a single character, but gets nutty once you have three or more.

A hit to Searing that made the damage trigger every time, but drops the damage (in effect not really dropping - or possibly increasing - the DPS of a single Searing Ele), would go a long way towards making this character more viable solo - and less insane when stacked.

Skuld · Dec 28, 2006, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Sort of like immolate? Not quite with you.

JR · Dec 28, 2006, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

Sort of like immolate? Not quite with you.

At the moment Searing Flames does damage to all of those in the AoE if they are burning, and sets them on fire if they are not. The proposed change would mean that they would all be set on fire AND take damage EVERY time - just reduced damage.

Currently with multiple Searings you can rely on more people to be on fire, so you can happily spam away knowing the majority of the time you will hit that chunky damage. With a single Searing it can be difficult to get the damage to trigger at all against Monks that are sharp with the condition removal, effectively wasting your time.

With the change I suggest a single Searing Ele can constantly pump out DPS and pressure because the damage hits every time regardless, and having multiple copies of it wouldn't exponentially increase how effective it is - as it does now.

tacitus · Dec 28, 2006, 03:23 AM // 03:23

I remember talking about this on vent and the best suggestion anyone came up with was having searing flame cause exhaustion when the caster is not enchanted. This would encourage more enchantment removal since any ele would exhaust himself pretty fast after losing enchantments.

On a side note I think recharge time and burning duration cant be affected to much it would ruin the skill completely. Maybe lowering the damage and decreasing the aoe could work for balancing it.

I think it is overpowered as it stands at the moment just by comparing it to almost any other ele elite. I mean starburst was pretty common before but comparing starburst to searing flames shows big differences.

gasmaskman · Dec 28, 2006, 04:24 AM // 04:24

I believe the only thing SF needs is just a downgrade on the AoE and a little bit off the damage, nothing to hurt the use of it, but to prevent it from being abused.

Riotgear · Dec 28, 2006, 06:38 AM // 06:38

I'd agree with JR, there have been situations like this before where some skill scales overly well and whole teams are built around it, and the results have never been good.

I'm not sure I really want to see SF turn into a spam version of Rodgort's Invocation, though it would keep the skill viable on balanced teams should it eat a damage nerf.

Quote:

This would encourage more enchantment removal since any ele would exhaust himself pretty fast after losing enchantments.

SF eles will already burn out extremely fast if you strip fire attunement. Being enchanted is not a difficult condition to satisfy by any stretch.

Quote:

I believe the only thing SF needs is just a downgrade on the AoE

Adjacent AOE is part of why nuking was never really viable before SF. Reducing SF to adjacent would make it garbage.

Quote:

I think it is overpowered as it stands at the moment just by comparing it to almost any other ele elite.

Prophecies did not have a single ele damage elite. Factions did, but most of the Factions elites, like the rest of the Factions ele skills, were really bad. The only one that even looked good was Starburst, and the fact that you needed to get into touch range to do decent AOE damage should have said something all to itself.

It's not just powerful compared to any other ele elite anyway, it's powerful compared to any other nuke. Even if you run an energy elite that lets you power out spells all day, no nuke build can hold a candle to SF.

It's overpowered because it deals out an insane amount of damage, especially on maps with choke points and terrain that prevents splitting, without the large number of mitigation techniques that melee is subject to.

bungusmaximus · Dec 28, 2006, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Does SF really do insane damage? OK, assuming the enemy monk is asleep, it does. On the other hand, eles have fearsome enemies as well.

Thumpers: Run way too frigging fast all the time, they have a strong pet and cause KD all the time.
Assassins: Can kill an ele in a matter of seconds.
Good axe warior: Try to get a spell off in the first place.
Mesmer: ouch, downright ouch.
Ranger: 1 well timed savage shot and there goes your burning chain.

Thumper really is a good example, instead of 1 powerful melee character, they bring two(pet). It's used everywhere and people can run the class with two fingers. I'm not screaming to nerf thumpers here, this example only goes to show that eles aren't the only powerful easy-to-use class.

Assassins can pop up out of nowhere all of a sudden while there was no way to see them coming. they slice you up in seconds, poison you, knock you down and they interrupt casting. Hell they cann even remove enchantments. Before you can properly punish them they are out of range and they gain an extra heal in the process.

Since searing flames is not armor ignoring a potent warrior really only needs a few hits to completely mess you up. If they don't, they suck at their job, nuff said.

3 classes that can easily whack an ele, with proper exlanation how to. it doesnt take long and it isn't hard at all. If they nerf eles too much all they will be is everyones bitch in the battlefield. Mostly I use my ele just for utility and sadly enough, they are great utility. I use searing flames in Alliance Battles because it's just too much fun there. Mind you, people only get the shaft because THEY suck, not because MY searing flames is overpowered.

Patccmoi · Dec 28, 2006, 11:09 AM // 11:09

I guess a Nearby Immolate (with something like 6s burning instead of 3s) could be a viable option.

I really want that skill to remain threatening too, but i agree that its strength when stacked is kinda too much. But honestly i'd settle with just a small damage nerf personally. Something like 15..85 damage (0..15), and you could even raise the burning duration by 2s (so you get more damage out of 1 burning if it's not removed). It would become a nice degen tool and would damage pretty well but when stacked it wouldn't destroy targets as fast.

I think that all the suggestion about raising cooldown to 3s or reducing burning duration would destroy the skill for anything BUT mass SF teams, which i'd really hate. I remember when ANet decided to 'balance' SB/RI spike by making RI absolutely useless for ANYTHING BUT SB/RI spike, turning it into a totally garbage hex while not really fixing how the combo worked. I really don't want them to nerf SF in a way that will make it ONLY good when stacked (even more than it is now).

And i wouldn't say no one used single SF though. aNc for example used a single SF Ele in a couple of games in tournament and won with it. 1 SF is still not bad pressure, but it must hit more than 1 guy to be on par with other forms of pressure. But the thing is its VARIED pressure type. 1 Mesmer + 1 Warrior + 1 SF Ele require more varied stuff to shutdown than 2 warriors + mesmer and BSurge or the like isn't as efficient at shutdowning your offense. And once you hit VoD, 1 SF is more threatening than 1 warrior.

rii · Dec 28, 2006, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Messing with either the recharge, cost or burning length would mess the skill up if it remains as it is in mechanic.

The direct damage is easily nerfable though, either as above reduce it to less than 100 (remaining aoe) or leave it as is and make the DD single target, and the burning aoe.

Perhaps even add 10 damage or so if you made that change, so the skill works as a decent single target DPS skill, or an aoe burning-infliction skill, but isn't great at doing both at the same time...

Patccmoi · Dec 28, 2006, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Messing with either the recharge, cost or burning length would mess the skill up if it remains as it is in mechanic.

The direct damage is easily nerfable though, either as above reduce it to less than 100 (remaining aoe) or leave it as is and make the DD single target, and the burning aoe.

Perhaps even add 10 damage or so if you made that change, so the skill works as a decent single target DPS skill, or an aoe burning-infliction skill, but isn't great at doing both at the same time...

That's actually not a bad idea i think.

What if instead the burning is Nearby AOE but the damage is Adjacent AOE? You still have Nearby threat, -7 degen isn't something you can just ignore. But you could actually raise the damage to match that of Rodgort's but make it adjacent. It would be like throwing strong Fireballs at target but causing mass burning at the same time. Would be a pretty nice fix for the skill.

rii · Dec 28, 2006, 11:58 AM // 11:58

You can mess with the AOE in a variety of ways and have it still work.

As it stands, both 'nearby' is pretty dam good... too good perhaps, and so that wouldn't work.

The DD could be single target, and the burning could be increased to 'in the area'. That would move the skill into two seperate compartments - degen and DD spam, as opposed to just both.

Or, you could make the DD 'adjacent' and leave the burning 'nearby' - that would be a bit of both but more likely you'll just be going for one.

While -7 is decent, it's mainly decent if you can hit 4/5 foes with it. As it stands, hitting 4/5 guys also means they'll be taking a large chunk of damage a couple of seconds later, which -> complaining; but by messing with the DD/burning AOEs you could increase burning to make it a good degen skill and not break it.

Mouse at Large · Dec 28, 2006, 01:38 PM // 13:38

I may be off the mark here, but having done a lot of observing over the past few days, I'm not seeing vast numbers of SF packed teams owning anything - not HoH, not GvG - nothing.

Eles are squishy and rely on enchants to keep them viable. So what if they finally get ONE skillset/build that makes them slightly more of a nuisance than they used to be?

As I said at the start, they don't seem to be overrunning PvP, so let them enjoy their minor success and move on......

P.S. and yes - I play ele

taxed · Dec 28, 2006, 02:37 PM // 14:37

I think the trick to fixing this skill would be:
Leave the energy cost, cast time and recharge the same.
Leave the damage done and the AoE the same.

Instead of this (16 fire)
Elite Spell. Target foe and all nearby foes are struck with Searing Flames. Foes already on fire when this Skill is cast are struck for 119 fire damage. Foes not already on fire begin Burning for 7 seconds.

Make the discription this:
Elite Spell. Target foe and all nearby foes are struck with Searing Flames. If the target is already on fire when this Skill is cast the target is struck for 119 fire damage. If the target is not already on fire begin Burning for 7 seconds. All nearby foes begin burning for 7 seconds.

Hubert · Dec 28, 2006, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Does SF really do insane damage? OK, assuming the enemy monk is asleep, it does. On the other hand, eles have fearsome enemies as well.

Thumpers: Run way too frigging fast all the time, they have a strong pet and cause KD all the time.
Assassins: Can kill an ele in a matter of seconds.
Good axe warior: Try to get a spell off in the first place.
Mesmer: ouch, downright ouch.
Ranger: 1 well timed savage shot and there goes your burning chain.

Thumper really is a good example, instead of 1 powerful melee character, they bring two(pet). It's used everywhere and people can run the class with two fingers. I'm not screaming to nerf thumpers here, this example only goes to show that eles aren't the only powerful easy-to-use class.

Assassins can pop up out of nowhere all of a sudden while there was no way to see them coming. they slice you up in seconds, poison you, knock you down and they interrupt casting. Hell they cann even remove enchantments. Before you can properly punish them they are out of range and they gain an extra heal in the process.

Since searing flames is not armor ignoring a potent warrior really only needs a few hits to completely mess you up. If they don't, they suck at their job, nuff said.

3 classes that can easily whack an ele, with proper exlanation how to. it doesnt take long and it isn't hard at all. If they nerf eles too much all they will be is everyones bitch in the battlefield. Mostly I use my ele just for utility and sadly enough, they are great utility. I use searing flames in Alliance Battles because it's just too much fun there. Mind you, people only get the shaft because THEY suck, not because MY searing flames is overpowered.

I think you miss what others trying to do. As JR pointed out SF isn't a superior threat alone, but if there are some copies the opponent is really having a hard time. There is a viable option (others mentioned it before me):
Making it like an elite version of immolate (dmg always, but nearby burning) and a slightly decrease in damage or increase in recharge (or both)

Francis Crawford · Dec 28, 2006, 05:24 PM // 17:24

I fail to see the fundamental problem with having a great glass-cannon skill.

As people keep saying, multi-SF teams AREN'T winning much of anything.

And of the basic list of things to counter, I don't see why AoE fire damage shouldn't be high on the list, perhaps even in second place after melee. It IS a pretty fundamental concept to fantasy games, after all ...

JR · Dec 28, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

I may be off the mark here, but having done a lot of observing over the past few days, I'm not seeing vast numbers of SF packed teams owning anything - not HoH, not GvG - nothing.

Currently watching a pug with 2 Dom Mesmers and 4 Searing Eles rolling through every team they face with relative ease, including some fairly decent guilds.

It's like a lot of gimmicks, it is fragile as hell but has the potential to just slam people.

Randomway Ftw · Dec 28, 2006, 05:53 PM // 17:53

SF is not a difficult skill to counter on 1-2 Eles, the problem with it is that as JR said, the more copies you have the better it is. The synergy between multiple eles makes it do insane amounts of damage. It requires very little thinking to win, you simply mash buttons on low armor targets. In HA SF is only a symptom of a larger problem, the fact that people that people took Mantra of Flame screams that something is wrong, I can't really comment on GvG.

It seems that alot of PVE carebears love this skill, and like to bring that love into pvp skill discussions, ignoring any thought of balance, and thinking that fire magic should pwn all else.

niels haeken · Dec 28, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

i'm paper nerf scizzors rock is fine